Alright, everybody, welcome to the show. When it asked a question for the listeners out there, how many of you have ever had to deal with a co worker or a boss who has said things that have made you doubt yourself and wonder if you're not going maybe a little bit crazy, because they're pretty convinced that the real world air quotes for the viewers is very different from the one you were seeing or experiencing. I know that this has happened to me. And when it usually does, my spidey senses get triggered pretty quickly. And when this happens, I try to turn on my third person observer scope and sit back so that I can try to figure out if in fact, I'm biased and suffering from a little bit of cognitive dissonance is trying to protect me from this information that I'm getting. Or if I'm actually being gaslit by the other person. And in personal settings, when we're being gaslit. We have some degree of flexibility and how we can actually handle this. For example, if there are friends or acquaintances, we can call them out, or we can ignore it. But if it's your boss or your co worker, then gaslighting can actually have some professional and financial consequences to you, especially if there are issues around your performance. And so I reached out to an expert on gaslighting, best selling author and therapist Dr. Stephanie Sarkis, to learn more about how to protect ourselves and to navigate professionally when we are experiencing gaslighting at work. So welcome to the show today, Stephanie, thank you for having me on. Awesome. Now when I did my research on you, and you know, I got to you because you're the gaslighting Pro, because you have a book about it. And we'll talk about that later in the in the show here. I found that in your background, you also have a high degree of experience in ADHD. And so I'm curious about how that how that gaslighting in ADHD worked together or how it became a focus for you.

Well, it started with in 2015, especially after won in 2016, especially after January 2017, I started noticing people were getting more knowledgeable the term gaslighting for various political reasons. And I noticed that when people were coming in and talking about their relationships, they were talking more and more about emotional abuse, including gaslighting, which is the idea that you're with someone that's trying to make you think that you're crazy. And therefore, if you're told you're crazy, then you rely on the gas lighter, more and more for their version of reality. So you become isolated, which is exactly what the guest later wants. So I noticed people talking about that more and more. And I also noticed a trend that people with ADHD and anxiety and depression tended to be in these relationships more so than other people. And it appears that gas lighters, narcissist, sociopaths, they prey on people are vulnerable. I also noticed this with people that are grieving. So for instance, someone that was widowed, the next relationship they were in, turned out to be sociopath gaslighter I'm not saying that happens all the time. But that's what I would see in my practice. So and I started delving a little bit deeper into it, I found out that there was definitely this pattern of emotional abuse with the the triangulation and love bombing, we can talk more about what that all is. And then that turned into an article I wrote for Psychology Today, which is 11 warning signs of gaslighting, and that went viral. So So obviously, there was something going on in the population, they're really getting in tune with this type of emotional abuse. And since then, it's become an even bigger phenomenon. People are realizing more now and the me to movement, which was which has been around a while. But it's, it now has come to the forefront and especially now in the news about Evan Rachel Wood disclosing her history of gaslighting and abuse. So I think it's something that's really come to the forefront. And I don't think it's a word that's going to go away anytime soon. I think more and more people are becoming educated about it, and that this is a form of domestic violence.

Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm glad you said all that. You know, because I have always been a you know, on the show, domestic violence has come up quite a bit in that. Because, you know, so many people do just kind of dismiss, you know, words, you know, sticks and stones may break your bones and words can never hurt you. But we find out that words hurt terribly bad and are manipulative. It's, it's interesting, because I have had another guest talk about ADHD and adult relationships. And I hadn't really thought about the that parent child dynamic that can start up between, you know, I'm sure you know, that board. The, you know, one person feels like they have to be the person in charge of this person with ADHD because they're, you know, again, air quotes, you're incapable of, you know, doing anything on their own and that dynamic and I get answered as a tip off that something's coming down the pike. Right, right. Yeah. So that is so that makes like a natural intersection to me. I can totally see how that that came up. Now, you know, I joke about this, it's, you know, some of us received our psychology degrees online by just reading a bunch of articles. But seriously, like you said, the term has come up so often and it's used generically, but is there a good Definition because I believe gaslighting comes in lots of forms, you know, and so can you help break down what how, what gaslighting actually is and some examples of what gaslighting might be from like on that spectrum. Yeah,

sure. So gaslighting the term comes from a play in a movie called Gaslight and that movie was about man was trying to make his wife feel like she was going crazy. So he would dim the gas lights in the house and do other things, other nefarious things to make her feel like she was losing your mind. So that's where the term comes from. And it is a form of emotional abuse. And it's where you are, as a victim or survivor, you're being told that what you saw and heard isn't real, your belongings may be hidden. And then when you can't find them, you're told that you're irresponsible, and the gas layer must need to take over for you because you're not competent. You are told that the various family members and friends have said terrible things about you, which is a true but then that isolates you from them, your support system, and that also works in the gas layers favor because they want you to have all your attention focused on them. You also can do no, right. So in the beginning of the relationship, you have love bombing, which means that relationships are really intensely, and you may be asked to them with somebody, like the first second date. And you're told me that how wonderful you are. And that's all stuff that we like to hear. But there's an urgency and an overload to it. And once you get in the relationship, that's when the gaslighter drops that mask, and then you're going from being idealized, where you can do no wrong to devalue, or you can do no, right. And that's where the abuse starts. And it's a slow ramp up. So people ask me, well, how can people stay in these relationships? Well, it starts very slowly. It's not like all sudden you meet somebody, and they physically abuse you. That's not how these relationships work. The way that abusive relationship works or abusive relationship at work, for example, it starts out very, very slowly. You know, it's the what's the saying, is the frog in the frying pan or frog in the boiling pot or whatever they say, I never figure out which one it is the frying pan pot. Yeah. Yeah, it is. So yeah, Rajat grumble is something that doesn't involve like, you know, boiling frogs. So, but it's a gradual turning up of abusive behavior. So it starts with maybe making comments about your parents things, you can't change that. And then ADHD, you're told, well, you know, I don't like the way that you keep going on and on about stuff. And you obviously have something wrong with you and your medicines, not helping. And so I need to take over this and the other for you. It's being triangulated, meaning that again, you have the gas later, kind of pitting you against family members. And when you say to them, you know, I think I'm going to talk to somebody about how this relationships going, they'll say stuff like, Well, why bother? Because everybody thinks you're crazy anyway? Or, you know, who are they going to believe me, or, you know, because especially of gas lighters have a position of power, they will use that to their advantage and say, Well, you know, I am so and so. And, you know, a lot of times, gas lighters are very active in the community, they're seen as these pillars of goodness. And people don't know what goes on behind the scenes. So they will say stuff like, Well, you know, with my standing in the community who's going to believe you. So that happens quite a bit too. And it does escalate into financial abuse or economic abuse where money is withheld from you, you are forced to turn over your income to the gaslighter. In the case of ADHD, you'll be told that you don't have to organize monies, they need to do it for you, but it turns into a withholding, and also lack of access to your funds. Also, you're told that this everything is your fault. So these are people that tend to not go to couples therapy or therapy on their own. Because they tend to have what's called ego syntonic personality. So what I mean by that is they feel like everyone else has a problem. And they don't. When they do go for therapy, it's usually go to couples therapy, and they bring the spouse or partner and they will tell the therapist that this person needs to be fixed. So that's what you usually see. The other things that they do are pitting your children against you, undermining your parenting. Having the children if you're in a co parenting situation, they will have

the they'll

do some parental alienation. So they'll they'll have the kids start calling you by your first name rather than mom or dad. You also see a lot of again, like this possession stuff and we talked about we're going to talk about projection but projection means that these are people that tend to be chronic cheaters, because they have this narcissistic, void or space that they need to have filled with attention. And so when they feel like a narcissistic supply is dwindling For example, when your relationship is not in the love bombing phase, they will start looking for new narcissistic supply But what they'll do is they'll project which means they'll tell you that they think you're cheating, even though there's been no behavior that you've done to tip them off to that. And they will demand a look at your phone, they will harass you about it. Because again, the idea is that they're blaming you for things they did. And they're also trying to take the focus off of their behavior. So you spend time trying to figure out why they think you're cheating, you go onto Google and read articles about it, when in fact, it's that they're just trying to distract from their own stuff. If you do confront the gaslighter there's hell to pay, they will flip it around, I knew tell you that you're being too sensitive. And they will also Stonewall you, which means they act like you don't exist, you'll be in a room with them, and they will just kind of it's like you're invisible. And that's a form of punishment. It's an abusive form of punishment.

Yeah, punishment in quotes. Yeah. Man, I, I've said this before on other shows, and for anybody that's new here listening, I get triggered when I do these episodes, just because especially when you start rattling off all the things that are related to relational abuse and stuff, I mean, it's just kind of like, you know, sucking sound from my chest, but it's, um, it's important to know. And so then, I guess the you and you answered the projection. So let's, let's talk about about this, do only the extremely malignant narcissist use gaslighting as a technique? Or? Or can it be something like a, like a survival go to switch mechanism that a person might resort to gaslighting as like as a defense protection for them when they may be feeling triggered or attacked? And the reason why I ask is because I think again, about IT professional experiences, and also dealing with abusive relationships. Sometimes the abusers at home don't show up as abusers at work, they show up as an entirely different person who behaves differently. And vice versa. I think sometimes when people are a little bit more abusive at work, they might be a totally different person at home. And so then I'm trying to sort out, again, in a professional setting when I experience or see or somebody is telling me that hey, you know, my supervisor is telling me that nobody likes me at work. And I don't feel like that's actually the case. Does that person have reason to believe that their supervisor is a malignant narcissist, or just, you know, maybe it's just a heat that person felt really triggered that day, and now just as taking it out on everybody around them? Does that make sense? But

yeah, I will offer I think we need to look at the spectrum of, of influence and manipulation and gaslighting. So if you look at advertising, that's influence that's marketing stuff that's trying to get you to buy into the idea that your life will be better if you have those products. So we exist in a world where that is used to draw people in, then we have manipulation, which is a direct trying to take control over something then we have gaslighting, which is manipulation, but on a consistent basis, the purpose is to isolate and control. And yeah, it can be really tricky question, what is somebody having a bad day? And what's gaslighting? I think a lot of is behind the intent is the intent to isolate you is to punish you. Because people have as as Dr. House said, on the show house, everybody lies, right. So we have white lies, then we have the manipulation lies on the other end of the spectrum. So what's the purpose? What's the utility of what they're doing? Is it to isolate you at work so that you have no contacts and you have no backup or support on a project? Is it to make sure that you are left alone in the office so that person has access to you? Is it that the person kind of whispers really derogatory stuff to you under their breath, and no one else can hear? So when you address it, you're told that you're crazy. It never happened. So there's usually a pattern of behavior but according to definition, legal definition of harassment, I'm not an attorney, but as a therapist, the definition of harassment is it doesn't matter how many times it happens if it happens once it's harassment. So I really encourage people to look at the eeoc.gov so it's the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has a definition of harassment, and that includes behaviors like gaslighting, like emotional abuse, that whether people realize they're doing or not, there's kind of two different kinds of gas lighters. There's an escalator that grew up maybe with gaslighting narcissistic parents. And they learned that this is how you do relationships. Because we learn we watch our parents like a hawk or caregivers, and we look and see what are they doing in a relationship? How does that work in life, and then people get into relationships or in the workplace, and this behavior is no longer working for them. It worked really well as a survival mechanism when they were growing up and not so much anymore. Those are people that may realize that they're having counseling behaviors, and they may seek out help through counseling. Now, the other side of that are people that have like narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, commonly known sociopath. And with that, there's an ego syntonic thing again, That you're fine, everyone else is crazy. And so again, those people are less likely go for counseling. And then there's another subsection of that where people are doing this completely intentionally. The main goal is power and control. Now, it doesn't really matter what the origin is, because it's still abusive behavior. And that person still needs to 100% on that. But the origins of it may differ. And again, someone that has learned this behavior from childhood and realizes that they're having this behavior as a better shot, at getting treatment and recovering from it than someone that doesn't even identify that it's an issue, or does it on purpose, and has no desire to change?

you when you brought up the harassment term, I mean, to be honest, as you as as I was preparing for this, talk with you, I didn't even really consider that you know, why? Cuz I think it happens so often in work that we hear things said by other people that it's we accepted as commonplace, right? We might all accept that it's crappy behavior, and we don't want it to happen. But yeah, we don't think about it in terms of like, there's a legal standing and a protection mechanism that may be there for anybody that kind of goes into this next question, then, because when I have experienced or seen and seen this happen, you know, a tendency is, is we're being told something that we know is not true. And so then, you know, old me my knee jerk reaction was, I'd become like a defense attorney, and I'd start pulling out all the emails and all the evidence, you know, and trying to like, win a second interaction, right? And then and you find that, that doesn't always work. Like it doesn't even matter how much evidence stacks that you have there that gaslighter is not changing their minds, like they're set in their ways, they'll double down on it. Yeah, they will. And I've talked about that on other topics, too, of like, you know, kind of where we go with that. So, so I try to fact check myself before I arrive at a conclusion of whether or not I'm being gas lit or not, or or is this person actually making a genuine, you know, critique, that's valid there. But if we're talking about trying to protect ourselves from harassment at work, are there other ways or strategies that we can handle this that, that helps us? Maybe if we have to take it to the kind of the HR department and make a formal harassment complaint, like, how does it how do we avoid the he said, she said, she said, she said, you know, back and forth.

Right, so first, know what your company's grievance processes for harassment. So read your employee manual, if your employer does not have something like that in place, again, go to EEOC, look at the definition of harassment, there are some companies that that are exempt. So they depends on number of employees, something like that. So you want to look at, you know, what was said what day it was said and get direct quotes and document it. And you want to not document it in an employer owned device. Because if you are fired, or if you leave, you gotta leave those devices behind. So make sure that if your document and you're doing it in some kind of encrypted format on your own device, that's really important, again, that dates, times and direct quotes as much as

possible.

So then, when you go through the grievance process, I would also recommend consulting with the labor attorney, just to see what your rights are in the workplace, and that this does meet the definition of harassment. And then again, go see your employer's grievance process, see what they need. Because usually, if you're going to file with EEOC, there's some steps that need to be taken place first. So again, go to your HR department, see what their processes, bring your evidence. And again, you have the what's your saying of you, the gaslighter says something about you, and you arm yourself with all this stuff to defend yourself. That's a very normal reaction. But these are not people that react normally. Right? So, you know, first thing someone says somebody like, they learned this to Trump, it's like, well, you'll say, no, that didn't happen. And they'll say, Well, yeah, did and then you provide proof? And they'll say, Well, you know, that was doctored. Or then that then that the first doctor, then they'll say, Well, you know, you misunderstood what I said. And then eventually it was, well, you're too dumb to figure out, you know, what I was really saying, you know, that kind of thing. So what Yeah, like so whatever evidence you present is not good enough. But if you get someone else involved, like EEOC, or HR, there's one step removed from the process. So there is someone that's more likely to listen to you, especially this if it gets accepted by EEOC and then starts going up, you know, through the chain of process of harassment complaints. But usually, LC says you have to follow your workplaces, harassment reporting procedures, but again, not every company has those. Yeah, I

don't mean to look at too.

Well. And the other thing I think about you is, you know, even in my own self, my own sense of self is man, I don't want to be a troublemaker.

You know, and I think that That's really common that that we go well, we want to be nice. And it reminds me of studies I've done on people that were in situations where they felt that they were being threatened. And they were less likely to leave because they didn't want to look rude. Like, for instance, you're on a date. And the person says some stuff here, like this is not okay, and you get the spidey sense, people were more likely to stay in that situation, because they didn't want to appear rude, then get up and leave. And I think that, again, is part of human nature. We don't like kind of making waves. So but when you have the EEOC site up, and you see Wait a second, this meets the definition, even though you're told that it's not by various people you talk to because they may be trying to protect the company, or it's the gessler themselves. When you read that, you realize that you are not the only one, I have a whole chapter in my gaslighting book about what to do in those cases where you're being harassed at work. And again, harassment doesn't even mean is directly towards you, it could be that you heard somebody say something really inappropriate. And as a as a person, that's a bystander, you have a right to file a complaint. So again, I recommend, again, going to an attorney and seeing what your rights are not the issue with gasoline in the workplace is a lot of them will do things that fly just under the radar. So you can report them, but it doesn't meet the definition of harassment. And companies will not always take this seriously. They'll do like a slap on the wrist or something, but they won't really sanction the person. So a lot of times, people who had to just leave their jobs, which is really not fair, because it makes life more difficult for you. But you have to look at also what's the emotional cost, and the physical toll working in this place is taking on you? How is it impacting your family and your friends. And you'll notice that even though you have to leave your job because of this, your health improves when you leave that position. So again, sometimes it comes down to that, that you have to leave your job. And again, that's completely not fair. But again, these people can be masters of just flying under the radar and looking great to everybody else.

Yeah, which is definitely frustrating. And totally, I mean, I yeah, feeling that place of where you're like you just hate your work, because of you know, what people are doing or saying or behaving? Is there a way for somebody to, to kind of validate, like I said, I pull out, I look for evidence, but you know, like, Well, you know, I felt like I sent these emails. I know, one thing that I would do is, and I learned this because of being gaslit by in a personal relationship where the telling was is, you know, actually nobody really likes you. You know? Yeah, you know, I got that a lot. Well, nobody actually likes you, I have to stick up for you all the time. So I people just act like they like you. They don't really Yeah, really like you. Yeah. Right. So when I hear comments, or I hear people make comments like that was to somebody else, you know, for me, I'm just like, well, I'm gonna go see if that's actually true. You know, are there ways in which a person can validate? Or do the pass through the comments through a filter of saying, Is this really a a malignant behavior that I'm experiencing, and actions I'm hearing from this person, whether it's a co worker, or supervisor? Or is there a sensitivity test for myself to just make sure that maybe there isn't an over response from on my part, you know, I feel like I always have to have these scales between the two. But when people have been in abusive situations, I feel like I'm more like, I'm really on the scales, because I, you know, I don't want to be in another abusive situation. But I also know that my abuse history makes me you know, flare up a little bit faster there. And so, you know, suggestions and strategies, how do you know if you're really being gaslit? Or how do you know if it's really critique and it's not, you know, they're like, some self checks.

But one thing that I'd say that also ties into how do you protect yourself at work is make sure you get everything in writing. So if your boss comes by and says, can you work on this project, just say, Can you shoot that to me an email? So and we talked about ADHD to that, make sure that you have a paper trail? And also have your boss because he says, No, I didn't ask you to work on that project. I asked you to work on something else, because that's a classic with gas lighters, they'll switch things up on you, you can go Nope, here's the email. So a lot of it is keeping documentation, keeping a paper trail. And yeah, being aware of your history and your triggers is really important. And therapy can help tremendously with that, particularly a cognitive behavioral therapy has been found to be quite helpful. And also acceptance and Commitment Therapy and dialectical behavior therapy, if you've been through trauma, like an abusive relationship, and the more that you realize what your triggers are, the better you're also able identify when you're being treated appropriately. And if someone says to you, well, no one likes you anyway, that's inappropriate, no matter where it comes from, or, you know, the classic Well, you know, they felt that the but you know, I think that you know, I don't know if I totally agree with them, but they said this about you, you know, that again, is an appropriate because it's those people's responsibility to tell you that something bothered them. That's It's not your problem. Yeah, what I usually say is what other people think about you is none of your business. Right? So if someone's acting as like the messenger of some horrible stuff, and he said about you, I would just assume that it's not true. Because unless you hear it from that source, you really don't know. And you always have, you know, people who may not be nurses, but their drama stirs at work. And they love to see drama happen. And so they will, again, pit people against each other. So really take into account when someone's giving you third hand information that that is probably not accurate. Because what they also want you to do is go to the source and say, How could you say that about me? And you know, the course the source says, I never said that, but then you're upset. So if you have someone transmit information to you go, you know, Okay, first, I'm not sure this person actually said this? Because did they come up to me and say this? No. Is it worth talking to this person? Or can I be reasonably assured that they didn't say that, and usually, most of the times, I can be reasonably sure they didn't say that. But it's really important to listen to your gut instinct to your intuition. If something doesn't feel right, it's probably not. And sometimes it's not so much as this person nurses or gaslighter, it's more that, are they treating me in a respectable, respectful, and kind manner? If they're not, then some stuff needs to change. So it's not even if they have a diagnosis or where they you know, are they on the malignant end is just are they treat me with respect. And the other thing is that just because you treat someone respect doesn't mean you're gonna get it back. And, again, it's, I think, for people, especially if we talk about ADHD, and depression, anxiety, it's people are more vulnerable. And so I think that if you expect someone to treat you exactly the same way, it can be a real letdown when they don't. So it's important to look at that and say, is it just that they didn't meet what I wanted them to meet? Or do they do something malicious? Now, there's malicious and there's also ignorant, and both of them are not good. So you still have the right to say, hey, what you said, hurt me. And what the reaction is to that will tell you everything you need to know, if it's a healthy person, you say, hey, that thing you said, hurt me. The person usually says I'm sorry, I didn't realize, you know, I'll make sure that I don't bring that up again. And that's it. But if the person has gaslighting tendencies, manipulative tendencies, they'll put it back on you or you didn't see that or you didn't hear that, or what are you talking about? You're crazy. You'll see a lot of the defense strategies thrown at you, including, and also in this, this kind of says a gasoline stuff apart is they will completely fluid around to something that you did. And that's a tip off, so when you confront them,

yeah, yeah, I was gonna say that's the trigger part. Right? They're like, yep, nope. The turnaround in the conversation. Well, but you did well,

yeah. Right. Well, you didn't. And they never apologized. gasifiers versus never apologize. No, they do. It's, it's in a snarky kind of, Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, like that kind of thing. So in basically inappropriate behavior towards use inappropriate behavior. And again, when you talk to that person, say, hey, what you did hurt my feelings? You'll see the reaction again, is all you need to know. Yeah,

yeah, you brought up the thing about the paper trail in the writing. And that, that actually resonated with me too, in connecting it to because I had not made that connection directly. When somebody you know, I have years of project management experience behind me, I love everything in writing, you know, it comes from engineering and learning how to cover your ass, right? Like, it's all got to be documented so that you can't go back. That's why I'm a defense lawyer when it comes to issues. But I did notice, you know, that I have ran into people that every time you try to get them to commit something to writing it, they just refuse and just won't do it. And I've heard also, and I want to share this just for people that may like this might be language that they'll hear before, like, I shouldn't have to you need to put it down? or Why should I tell you how to do this, this, it's your job to figure this out, you know, this kind of reluctance to ever really want to document and to have something to go back to and it being dismissed, again, is something that you should do, or it's unnecessary, because you should be more competent at what you do, or more experienced, or whatever other words that they might want to use. Does that sound like a familiar? That's what you document

I asked. so and so. And this is particularly an issue with coworkers, you know, I so and so to please put that in writing. And if they refuse to, then you write down so and so refuse to put this in writing. And then you send out an email saying, per you know, your comment of not being able to write this down. I'm reiterating what I said And please, by the end of the day, or please, next couple hours, if you could tell me, you know, if you could verify this is what we talked about. So then again, you're setting up kind of a double paper trail you're putting in your journal, this is what was said on the stage. And then you also have the email being sent to them and you're giving them a timeframe saying please let me know I'm making a reasonable timeframe. Now. That goes The next five minutes. But you know, by the end of the work day, please verify that this is what we discussed. Now, if you have accommodations, like if you have ADHD, anxiety, depression in the workplace, you having things written down maybe one of your combinations, so you want to check that too if you're covered under Americans with Disabilities Act in the workplace. And that's a whole nother thing to talk about. But so you may be entitled to having things written down. And that may be actually violation of your rights as someone with a disability to not have it written down. So that's, that gets into more and that's why we consult in the tray specializes in ABA. But again, your document that someone refused to put that in writing, I also want to add to before I forget is that make sure that you're never alone with the gaslighter at the workplace, because they will try to sometimes get you alone, make sure that you're the only one working after hours, they'll say, yeah, group of people, the other teams working after hours, and you show up, you're the only one there. Or everyone sent home, you didn't know that and all sudden you're come by your cubicle and places empty. So you want to make sure that you're never left alone with the guests later, because you will not have a witness present. And if the gas lawyer does want to talk to you have a witness present. And again, sometimes the boss will say, well, you don't need a witness why, you know, I'm not allowing that you can say no, I think it's best for everybody, you know, they can just, you know, transcribe everything. And if they refuse that someone president again, then you have to look at him document, and then go to HR, but you really want to avoid being alone with these people, because they will completely flip that around on you.

The siloing. familiar, unfortunately, with that aspect of it, too. Now you bring it up. I mean, again, I sit there and I think about when the person has power influence over you and your organization and their gaslighter. You know, we've talked about kind of the protection mechanisms and stuff like that. And as you said, sometimes you just have to make the decision, is this the right environment for me, especially if there isn't anything going on to address the gas lighters, behaviors and actions? So let me ask you this question here. What happens if you are the HR team and you see conflict within your organization, and that you've got a perpetrator a gas lighter in the company? You know, is there things in the professional setting that can be done to? I know, you can't send somebody to therapy that doesn't want to go and expect them to get anything out of it? But are there protections for somebody who doesn't want to see an employee being abused with a person maybe that has such a position in a company that they're not going anywhere, anytime soon? You know, how do you bridge the the disconnect between the two so that you don't have your workforce leaving in mass? You know what I mean?

Right? There's, there's a piece of labor law, which I can't answer to, because I'm an attorney, but I'm not an attorney. Attorney, not Definitely not. And then there's the he's like an answer to therapists, which is we need to have zero tolerance for harassment, zero. And that means that you know, the Board of Directors has to be on board with not tolerating this at any level in the company. And when you have shareholders, you have to think about too, you know, sometimes you have to put in terms of bottom line, which is your shareholders not gonna be happy, or your business is gonna lose money, and you can get some lawsuits against you. So sometimes that's the that's the, the thing that works is that this is going to impact your bottom line. And these types of people will burn your company down to the ground, rather than just walk away from their job, that you are on the hook. And again, this would be something in labor law, but but you're on the hook for somebody harassing behavior. And do you want that to be your company culture, because that becomes your company culture really quickly, that spreads like wildfire, and also an age of social media, that information will go around the world in about two seconds. And then again, we have the me to movement, people are becoming much more aware of how prevalent This is. I remember talking to a group of women, we were all saying that we didn't know anybody that hadn't been sexually harassed in the workplace. We, you know, I think there was one Somebody said, Well, I think I have a friend that was never harassed. I'm gonna ask her, I mean, it's not a big group. So this is so prevalent, and so we really need to look at, are we protecting the employees, because again, you're liable as a company, if you have someone that's doing this behavior. And again, you you will get, you know, we talked about getting canceled, your company will get cancelled, you will lose, you know, support from people and we really need to look at you know, if it's just the common decency thing isn't isn't enough, which it should be, then we need to really look at this is going to affect companies and whether they even exist. Yeah, they're gonna go through somebody lawsuits, or settlements or whatever it is. So and I think that means that we need to speak up for people that that are being bullied, that they're vulnerable to someone that's harassing them or treat them inappropriately is that that we have an obligation to speak up

and do something that's right.

Yeah. And I think again, like comes in the company culture too. Is it a culture where you are you are encouraged to discuss things and things are done about that? Do you have a solid code about harassment and bullying in the workplace? Or do you just say, Hey, if you're being harassed code of HR. So it's really important that this is a top down thing that from the Board of Directors on down there needs to be an understanding that this is not tolerated.

Yeah. And you use the word bullying, and it's the right word, you know, for this, it's in my brain, you know, my little gears are turning in my head. And I think about you know, how do you you know, how, how do you? How do you make it safe to bring it up? Because I think I go back to safety, right? Like, we don't know, everybody's histories, personally, we don't know what their levels of safety and comfort, you know, are at being able to make things like this, you know, bring this awareness up there. And, and when it comes to bullying in business, you know, there is I'm just a tough business manager, I'm just a tough leader. I'm just a tough supervisor, that it's not bullying. You know, I'm, you know, I'm allowed as well to be my, my true self, which is happens to be an asshole at times. Right. So he embrace over the rainbow personality. Right? Right. And draw that, you know, because I can think of people that I ran into that if you accuse them of being a bully, they'd be very defensive about that. Or they own it. Yeah, or they own it, too. Yeah, right. Yeah. Sure. But,

you know, I'm just telling people what they need to do. And if they don't listen, that's their problem, right? Kind of the attitude sometimes.

Yeah. And, and they and the culture, you know, I've seen it also a conflict of culture where it is we want to be this type of an organization, but we're definitely at the top end of this group, not modeling all of that, because we are exhibiting things that are bullying in nature, and conversations, just hit my mic, if anybody heard that, you know, and that are punishing and derogatory, and, you know, just negate the humanity of a of another person, which I am just kind of sucks. I, if we're, if we're in this, it sounds like when I asked the question there, the really the HR team has to decide, or in your opinion here, as not a lawyer is that when we have people that are chronic gas lighters in this way, that there really isn't going to be much like wood, there's no, there's there's no change for them, like, you know, I mean, do we throw them into a leadership training boot camp and show them how to not do it? Or is it a better bit? Does it seem to be better that, in your experience professionally, that the satisfaction and the results are just not going to be there with that person, like, it's a hard thing to change out of somebody,

we need to start from the actual hiring process, which is we really need to know how this person performed in previous jobs. I think the rule was, previously in past years, that you would just disclose what times the person worked at the previous job. And you didn't say anything about the performance. I think that's changing now, especially after there have been some lawsuits, especially after so I live in the Tampa Bay area, and there is a case in Tampa of a work shooting. And the company that did not disclose or did not ask about the person's history, the previous company, which included aggressive behavior, that company was sued, and I believe they settled with the families so so there may be a piece again, this training piece I can not attorney nor I play on a TV that, that you may be liable if you don't find out about what this person's previous history was, then you have to look at to have your the company being asked what was this person? Like? Do you have an obligation, I guess the legal part you have an obligation or form them the person was fired because of potential bullying or violent behavior or stalking behaviors? So there's a question that again, I would refer to people's in House Counsel or again, labor attorney to find out what the rights are with that. But we need to start from the hiring process on to make sure that someone is hired, that fits the company culture if you have a healthy company culture. So the other piece of that is make sure you have a healthy company culture. And there's a whole field of psychology called industrial organizational psychology, and you can hire a psychologist to consult with you and look at your business 100% and look at what policies do you have in place about harassment policies you have in place about bullying? Do you have a company culture where people can openly speak about something? And is something done about it? Yeah, like it's great to have a suggestion box or comment box, but if you're not doing anything about it, what good is it? So and then also, industrial organizational psychologists can also tell you what education needs to happen in your workplace and it needs to be continual education. just you know, you get hired, you watch a video on what you know, harassment is there needs to be continuous kind of in service days, or you think of school, you know, teachers in service days or need to be in service days where you talk about what's acceptable behavior and what's not. And we have to do that we can't just assume that someone's going to behave appropriately. Now, sometimes people will just Ace through interviews, and they'll just look great, because again, they're able to put on that kind of human suit. If I call it, I'll give a good place where they have a demons that were human suits. So it's like, you know, they were they were their human suit, and they look like they're totally fine. But then once they're given like, the keys to a power, then then that starts, you know, kind of fading away and the inner narcissist comes out, but we need to be really good at pinpointing What are the signs that someone might be headed in that direction, if they're hired, and the company? There are various questions you can ask. And you again, you have to make sure that these are legal questions. But things like tell me why you left your last job. If you have someone that tells you stuff that blames everybody except they don't talk about their own experience. That's a red flag. Yeah, so they say well, my boss said this, my boss said that there's a way to appropriately say, I didn't agree with some things that were happening or you know, I filed a complaint, this person harassing me, there's there's been that and then something the person did they start blaming everybody else for it?

Yeah, I did. I was the director of recruiting at a company for a period and use psychometrics and also that kind of growth minded questions and accountability questions and stuff like that, because you're right. The person who comes in and you know, is been perfect their entire career, and it's just been everybody else's problem is like,

well, people have about psychometrics too, because that's tricky. So psychometrics. And what we're referring to is psychometrics is the you know, assessment tasks, and personality tests. People that are trying to put up a really good front can fool those tests. So I wrote an article for Forbes that said, you know, if you take the MBTI, Myers Briggs for work, it just means you really like taking tests. It doesn't mean that what it tells you is accurate. So I think we really need to be careful if we don't rely on psychometrics only, which I know that companies usually don't do that they have a whole bunch of other stuff. Right. But those are not always an accurate view. I think the big five tests, which talk about agreeableness, and I forget what the other four are conscientiousness? Yeah, you know? Yeah, that was found to be, I think, a research pretty valid task. But again, you have people that are going to answer that the way they think it needs to be answered.

Yeah, gaming it.

Right, right. And there, and there are some tests that do have ways to determine through the answers as someone is possibly being consistent with their answers. But you will have people that you know, will look really good on paper. And again, that's where we really need to look at what were the circumstances where they worked before. Their little tells. So if you have to look at also when they arrived for an interview, what is their behavior? How do they treat the front reception person? That tells you like, how do they treat people, where they feel like they have nothing to gain by being nice, that person. And you'll see that people like I think I've like when people go to restaurants, you know, the before time we used to go to restaurants more often. So what is that? Yeah, before time. Look at how the person treats waitstaff or servers, they will usually treat them poorly, because they feel like they don't really have anything to gain from being nice to them. That's the mindset. So you need to look at how do they treat other people starting from the time they walk in the door to when they go through the interview process. And if anybody in the team is doing the interview gets any kind of sense that this is not okay, that needs to be listened to. And the person needs to not be told, well, you know, I don't know, I think they're still pretty good because they can do this, this this for us. Now someone says, there's something going on with this person that I don't think they're a good fit, we really need to listen, because nine times out of 10 or 9.9 times out of 10, that person is not going to be a good fit. And again, that's something that comes from the Board of Directors on down. What is tolerable behavior, what's not tolerable behavior, and that needs to be very clearly defined. And if there's something in the board of directors, that is exhibiting bullying, or gaslighting behavior, then that person is no longer on the board of directors. I mean, that's, that's the point we have to get to where, you know, again, it's from the top down that this idea of people are gonna be treat with kindness and respect, needs to be adhered to, and saying to somebody, hey, I'd always agree with this point. That's not harassment. So you know, I think it's also important to let people know too when these kind of in service trainings saying your opinion on something isn't harassment, if you just say, Hey, I disagree with this, and this is why that's not harassment that's having open dialogue. But I think we all kind of know what harassment is when we see it. We also need to say to that, you know, this is this is how you say something, if you don't agree with somebody, you can agree, you can not agree with somebody and still treat them with kindness and respect. And that's where we get into the person saying, well, this is just my personality was natural thing, that I'm that now that's not acceptable. You can, it takes such little effort to be kind, it really does very little effort. So you can say your opinion without being a jerk. And that we really need to hold people accountable.

Yeah, I agree. I, you know, several comments that, you know, came through my mind that, you know, we might hear or people might hear at work is, you know, the, the kind of the underhanded threats to your job, you know, why do I have you around if I could get it from somebody else, you know, in order to kind of stir up behavior to, you know, get you to kind of step up or whatever. The inappropriate motivation. Yeah, right, inappropriate motivation and fear. And so that makes me you know, as I'm, you know, kind of reflecting on this conversation, and I'm thinking about, like, what are the takeaways for listeners and people working in organizations is to think about, you know, an exercising and understanding like, do you have a defined anti harassment bullying gaslighting policy? Like, do you have you had a conscious conversation about how it looks? What are the words that are used? How is it used, you know, as a, quote, motivational tool or punishing tool, you know, in management, and supervisors? Is this going to be something that we're going to allow everybody to do, and because sometimes the businesses have difficulties that they've never really kind of codified it yet. So then it's too great a certain force, right, you have to kind of come in and say, we're, this is something that is important, it does affect the well being of the employees and the relationships that we have with one another, our performance as a company. So we should take some time to put some arms around to put a container around this topic and understand what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, what are we going to do when we hear it or see anybody in the company? You know, kind of violating that. And I think that this is what we're talking about is something that doesn't specifically get addressed. It kind of gets tolerated. spoken to bitched about around the watercooler complaint, you know, I mean, whatever it is, that nobody ever feels like that there's anything they can actually do about it, because you go to HR, and they're like I. And that's

right, right. And that's for industrial organizational psychologist comes in, where they can actually help you formulate a policy of anti bullying and anti harassment. And because HR needs to be able to do their job of monitoring this, because if your employee manual says, if you feel like you're being harassed, go to HR and HR goes, Well, we don't really have procedures for that, that company is probably liable for not having that, you know. So, again, you need to look at the fact that you may be opening yourself up to legal liability. And again, non attorney. You know, I have worked with companies that, you know, you look at their policies, I'm like, yeah, your policy isn't really a policy, it doesn't really have anything behind it as to what the procedures are for if this does happen, you know, it's good to say, Hey, we're a workplace that doesn't tolerate harassment, bullying, but what are the teeth behind that?

Right, are

you gonna enforce that? What's the policy for someone reporting it? Have you had incidents in the past where someone says they reported it, nothing was done. And that's where you have to possibly do an overhaul that whole system as to what's your employee turnover rate? And if it's high, why Could it be that you don't have a culture of belonging, and respect and kindness towards people? And it's also reflected in and how, how your employees are paid, and how and you know, how they're treated and others these long, there's micro aggressions, and we think about that mostly with with racism. You know, there's little things that like, they're like little mosquito bites, but they add up over time, I think that's just me talking about with the cooler, right, is that, you know, this person said, this, this versus that, and it's the building up, you know, just like we talked about relationships, there's a building up of these microaggressions. And and I think that's what I think needs to be addressed, too, is that what do you do when it's a problem behavior may not be the definition of harassment, but you still shouldn't tolerate it. Hmm. And, you know, again, people that fly under the radar, why are they flying under the radar? Are the policies not tough enough?

Right. And the inertia, I mean, this is like one of those things like we could have a beer and talk about this for a while, you know, you know, I actually was writing about this this morning that, you know, sometimes people benefit from the inequities that exist in businesses. Oh, absolutely. So I don't want to change it because it still works in their favor, you know, right.

Right. And I think that's when we get into Do we have diversity in the company? Do we have diversity of the board of directors level? Do we have representation? Because Yeah, for for, you know, people that have entitlement in why change stuff because things are working great for them. But I think for a lot of companies, you know, if they're not doing it out of just human decency, you really need to look at what's your liability, your bottom line. You know, again, it should just be that you're going to do this because you're, you're a decent company. And there are companies that are decent, but you got to look at you know, if that doesn't work, then you got to do the practical, then you then you consult an attorney, and go, you know, hey, what's your liability for this? But again, it's a board of directors on down if you get some of the board of directors, that's known, you know, as a harasser, like I think like Harvey Weinstein, you know, if they are being kept on the board, what does that say to everybody else in the company, it says that they're not listened to? It says that you're tolerating that behavior. So you really need to look at that, because shareholders can turn on you. And so that's the other thing to look at, too, is that you really need to look at, again, if it's not just common human decency and human rights that you're going to start working on this you need to look at, you may be liable. And this may start costing a lot of money. So really important to look at that. And if you're working for a company like that, can you speak up? Is something done about it? Are you listened to not only do you speak up? And are you listened to? Hmm.

Yeah, I agree. Two different things. Yeah. Right, you get to safely walk in the office and file your complaint, but there's no traction or anything, you know, right.

And then you're known as a troublemaker. And I think that's the reason why a lot of people don't report is because they don't want to be seen as the person that you know, reported. And then they're seen as, you know, whistleblower, or, you know, because whistleblowers are good, I'm not saying that. But you know, they're they're called that in the workplace are called the troublemaker, because there was, there was no follow up done. And that's really damaging to a person. And I think if you have a past history of harassment, or trauma, abuse, that can really trigger PTSD symptoms, when you report bullying, and you're not taken seriously, it really brings up that past history of you experiencing that a relationship or in another workplace. And, and that's why I also recommend if this is happening, to seek some counseling, because I think therapy is really helpful for getting through that if it is triggering PTSD, because it's very difficult to work to your potential when you're having flashbacks. And you're, and that's being triggered by what you're going through. So I really recommend talking to someone, I think anyone has gone through trauma, I think therapy can be helpful.

Yeah, no, amen to that. It because that's definitely you know, even the you know, even if you feel like you're robust, and you've got it all behind you, and you've been working through it, it doesn't take much with the right combination of words from somebody in the context to just amp it up and trigger you all over again, especially right through abuse, for sure.

And maybe we should talk about what that means for triggers, cuz I know we use that word a lot. But triggers are, there's something that happens, somebody says something, and you go back to your abuse, like you can have flashbacks, or you go back to that time and place with that person, the previous person that did this behavior, and you can have kind of this explosion of feelings, whether that's terror, whether it's anger, and it's something that we really need to pay attention to that we all have different triggers, especially if you have a history of trauma. So that's what I mean by triggers is something that reminds you of the behavior of your trauma. And so when we look at things like you know, on a lot of shows, it says, Your Trigger warning, you know, for for, like self injurious behavior, eating disorders, and because the idea is, is that that can bring up those, those feelings that sometimes we the trolley have gone through, we have locked away those memories, so we're able to function day to day. And sometimes when we hear somebody say something or see something, it's the right key to unlock that memory. And then that comes back and it can come back and huge waves and knock you

down.

So it's really important to be aware of what your triggers are. And to know that when it's happening to be able to do some some immediate self care strategies.

That's a good that's a good thing. Now, yeah, as a person who does that myself, definitely, it's helpful to be able to navigate this. Now you wrote a book, I want to give you a chance to talk about that called gaslighting. And so tell everybody about what's in the book beyond what you and I just spent an hour talking about, that people can get through through reading it and, and come away with sure it's every chapter is about a different aspect of gaslighting. So as I mentioned, there's a whole chapter on gaslighting in the workplace, what your rights are,

what laws back you up, what the processes for reporting those what the EEOC guidelines are, there's also a chapter about gaslighting in your family, because we can't always completely cut off contact with gas lawyers as you talked about at work. We're in families or there's a chapter in CO parenting with a gas lighters. If you have a kid with someone, you can't completely cut them off sometimes either. So there's also a chapter on dating, and what are the red flags to look for how to identify if you're in a gaslighting relationship, and that could be again at work at home friendships. Again, there's also chapter on friends and neighbors that you may be living next to people that you would not have chosen to live next to. So how do you deal with that when there's some gaslighting behavior going on there. There's also a chapter on what to do if you think you might be gaslighting. So again, I think that's something that's not addressed as much as what happens when you realize that the pattern of behavior that you've had in relationships, whether that's at work, or at home, is no longer beneficial to you or other people. And that gets into your family of origin, gaslighting and narcissism. There's also a chapter on gasoline in society. And in our previous administration, we had a guest later in chief. So we talked about how gas lighters, manipulate people into in order to take control and to create chaos. And we see this on a global scale. And, and then we circle back to again, what can you do about this? How do you heal and recover from it? If you realize that you've been in a guest relationship, or you've been working with someone's gaslighter? What can you do to heal yourself and also change your environment so that it's more conducive to better quality of life?

Good stuff, highly recommended. I'll have links to the book in the podcast notes for anybody that's listening here so that you'll be able to zip right over to purchase it and be able to learn more I like I said, I think that, you know, we, we do run into it. And I appreciate that you have the chapter also on how to know if you've done it yourself, because like I had asked the question, it's not always the malignant narcissists that use it, they use it a lot. They're very skilled at it. But some of us that especially if we had a family dynamic, a family of origin dynamic where it was protection mode, it was killer be killed mentality, we end up sometimes picking up that behavior, which makes me feel hopeful that sometimes when we run into it in the workplace, from a co worker, or somebody that's in a supervisor position, that they may be one of those people, the ones that kind of leaned into it, not realize it, and you might be able to get that raise that awareness level to get them to change. However, it's not our job to change the world. Right? Right. And people are still 100% responsible for their behavior. It totally totally responsible for it. And, and so that's why, you know, for me, personally, I like an organizational view of this, like, you know, can a company start to look at that differently and to be able to understand whether or not who's doing it and how we can correct it if possible, and then have a boundary of it's not being corrected, and we're going to make a decision even if it's a hard one to let good people go, you know, good people air quote around that again, you know, high performers go because they are gaslighting everybody around them. And that's not good. So awesome. Well, thank you so much. I Oh, you're welcome. This is a great conversation. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah, this is cool. And I'd like to be able to, you know, bring you back on. There's so many other topics to talk about and stuff that this was fantastic. So I appreciate you. Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. Cool.