One Broken Mom

Why Women Hate Women with Berit Brogaard

January 25, 2020 Amee Quiriconi Season 2 Episode 39
One Broken Mom
Why Women Hate Women with Berit Brogaard
Chapters
One Broken Mom
Why Women Hate Women with Berit Brogaard
Jan 25, 2020 Season 2 Episode 39
Amee Quiriconi

On this episode, Ameé speaks with Berit Brogaard. “Brit” is a Professor and the Director of the Brogaard Lab for Multisensory Research at the University of Miami. Her educational background includes a medical degree in neuroscience and a doctorate in philosophy. 

Her areas of research include perception, synesthesia, blindsight, consciousness, neuro-psychiatry and emotions. Brit has written over 100 peer-reviewed articles, some three hundred popular articles on neuroscience and health issues and three books: Transient Truths (Oxford), On Romantic Love (2015) and The Superhuman Mind (2015). She is currently finishing a third book with Oxford entitled Seeing and Saying. 

Her work has been featured in various public media, including Nightline, ABC News, the Huffington Post, Fox News, MSNBC, Daily Mail, Modesto Bee, and Mumbai Mirror. She is the 100th President of the Southern Society for Philosophy and Psychology and was the first female President of the Central States Philosophical Association.

We know the movies like “Mean Girls”. The gossip. The put downs and insults. And then even the not so obvious ways women sabotage each other in the workplace even, especially if it’s in male-dominated company or industry. 

So it begs the question – if we know how hard it some times to be a woman and live with our challenges, socially and culturally, why on earth would we be hateful towards other women? 

And that’s why Brit is on today – to help us understand female misogyny. 

 

In this episode, you will hear: 

  • Defining misogyny and what it is.
  • Where can the origins be generally found for men and women? 
  • The four basic types of female misogynists: The Puritan, The Self-Critic, The Self-Loather, and the She-Devil. 
  •  Are feelings of jealousy and envy towards other women misogynistic or normal? 
  • How widespread is female misogyny? 
  • Is this something treatable or addressable? Can a misogynist learn and grow out of these feelings of contempt? 

 

Resources

Article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/201908/12-ways-spot-female-misogynist

Website: The Mysteries of Love on Psychology Today

Book: On Romantic Love: Simple Truths about a Complex Emotion (Philosophy in Action)

Book: The Superhuman Mind: Free the Genius in Your Brain

Show Notes Transcript

On this episode, Ameé speaks with Berit Brogaard. “Brit” is a Professor and the Director of the Brogaard Lab for Multisensory Research at the University of Miami. Her educational background includes a medical degree in neuroscience and a doctorate in philosophy. 

Her areas of research include perception, synesthesia, blindsight, consciousness, neuro-psychiatry and emotions. Brit has written over 100 peer-reviewed articles, some three hundred popular articles on neuroscience and health issues and three books: Transient Truths (Oxford), On Romantic Love (2015) and The Superhuman Mind (2015). She is currently finishing a third book with Oxford entitled Seeing and Saying. 

Her work has been featured in various public media, including Nightline, ABC News, the Huffington Post, Fox News, MSNBC, Daily Mail, Modesto Bee, and Mumbai Mirror. She is the 100th President of the Southern Society for Philosophy and Psychology and was the first female President of the Central States Philosophical Association.

We know the movies like “Mean Girls”. The gossip. The put downs and insults. And then even the not so obvious ways women sabotage each other in the workplace even, especially if it’s in male-dominated company or industry. 

So it begs the question – if we know how hard it some times to be a woman and live with our challenges, socially and culturally, why on earth would we be hateful towards other women? 

And that’s why Brit is on today – to help us understand female misogyny. 

 

In this episode, you will hear: 

  • Defining misogyny and what it is.
  • Where can the origins be generally found for men and women? 
  • The four basic types of female misogynists: The Puritan, The Self-Critic, The Self-Loather, and the She-Devil. 
  •  Are feelings of jealousy and envy towards other women misogynistic or normal? 
  • How widespread is female misogyny? 
  • Is this something treatable or addressable? Can a misogynist learn and grow out of these feelings of contempt? 

 

Resources

Article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/201908/12-ways-spot-female-misogynist

Website: The Mysteries of Love on Psychology Today

Book: On Romantic Love: Simple Truths about a Complex Emotion (Philosophy in Action)

Book: The Superhuman Mind: Free the Genius in Your Brain

spk_0:   0:11
you're listening to one broken long, a podcast dedicated to raising awareness about mental health, parenting and self improvement. I'm the host. One broken Mom is not a family show. It is intended for adults only and may contain adult language. Sometimes the topics are serious, but you can count on the episodes to be entertained. Also, one broken mom is not offering any psychiatric for medical diagnosis. Were just here giving away useful and important information. So if you're ready to hear real talk by real people so that we can all get better together, then you're in the right place. All right, everybody, welcome back to one broken. Mom, I've been looking forward to this interview for several days. I've been talking it out with friends and letting them know that, you know is gonna have my guest on today to talk about this particular topic. Mostly because I think a lot of people never really think about this as ah is an idea. Um and, ah, thing that we're, you know, that we're confronted with on DSO today. I have with me a Brit Bro guard, and she's a professor in the director of the broker Lab for multi sensory research at the University of Miami, and her educational background includes a medical degree in neuroscience and a doctor and philosophy. So I just like immense smartness coming out here today. Her areas of research are actually in percent perception. Synthes. Easy a blindside consciousness, neuropsychiatry and emotions. She's written over 100 peer review articles. Her work has been featured in various public media, including Nightline, ABC News, The Huffington Post, Fox News, NBC Going on and On. She's the 100th president of the Southern Society for Philosophy and Psychology and was the first female president of the Central States Philosophical Association. So she's pretty much a badass. And I can say that because I love women and I love empowering women and helping them be happy and successful themselves. However, not all women are like that and feel like that. And in fact, at times some, some of us even have these moments of jealousy or envy towards our peers. Success that makes us feel uncomfortable makes us ask ourselves, Wow, why is this weird feeling bugging me? It's not really who I am. And then, as we saw in the wake of the Me to movement, visceral hatred directed towards Christine Blazy, Ford and her testimony, as well as towards other women who shared their own stories not just by Nen but hatred from other women. And so we know the movies like Mean girls. We know the gossip. We know the put downs in the insults and then the even not so obvious ways women sabotage each other in the workplace, especially if it's in a male dominated company or industry. So it begs the question if we know how hard it is sometimes to be a woman and live with our challenges that we have at us and socially and culturally, why on earth would we be hateful towards other women? And that's why Brits on today and just help us understand this idea of female misogyny. So welcome to the show, Brit.

spk_1:   2:58
Thank you so much for having me.

spk_0:   3:00
Yeah, so excited. So when we use the term misogyny and this is what happened is I was talking with friends and colleagues about it. The word is commonly associated with men. And so when I told people that I was gonna be doing this interview with you and that used the frame female misogyny. I got back these puzzled looks like. Is that really a thing? Um, so I want to start off first by defining the word misogyny and what it is,

spk_1:   3:23
right? Literally. It meetings hatred of women. But it doesn't mean hatred off all women. It means hatred in the broad sense of hatred. When we talk about hatred in the broad sense, we talked about either hatred in a oner sense or contents where you're looking down on people. So we see that, for example, that you talk about hate, speech or hate crime or hate group. It contains both hate and content, so it's really hate a contempt for women. But again, not all women so which women are not, contend to use an old fashioned term or hate it well, where's that? Depends, but they're too ideals that what is it? I deal and the others more myth. One ideal is so that the ideal of femininity that's not a new one that was already back in ah in the fifties and even the 40 Years and Friends was one of the books written on on that ideal. But it's still it's still prevails today. and it's basically that women should be feminine, not masculine. That's to sum it up like like regular. But if you spell out, then what? This is what you mean by feminine and masculine. Um, you bet. Basically got the stereotype of today, right? So do you. You know, men are considered strange or queer. If they wear makeup right, that's just an example. But that that's intimate made an extreme example. Another example would just be like staying home with the kid as a dad is unusual, right? And even look down upon but not, I mean, it's almost expect that if anyone is staying home, it would be the mother. Um, so hey, sugar content for for women could then be for the hatred when women refused to stay in side or get close to that ideal. Right? So so with you have I know you have some to choose. And if you have two twos, for example, you are already in deviating from that ideal. Um, and any other ways to say this is one way you're deviating from that, that you'll and so some people, men or women, um, or neither men nor women and we're both men and women, Whatever where you are on the gender spectrum, uh, might hate you for that, Which is because it's for them is a natural for us a. A woman to have to choose where a woman to be. It's the CEO of a company or or for a woman to be the president of the United States. As, uh, the hatreds up in amounts to a kind of punishment. And and so that's all the point made by, uh, my colleague not probably hear about calling in my area a cake man in her book on logic, off misogyny. Uh, but the other form the other way that you can be sort of sucked at that too. The Stephanie is if you have, uh, shouldn't you sort of you're not doing anything extreme. You might even be sitting the feminine ideal. Um, you might be looking feminine, being such a servant to men and so on, Um and yes, with the men are culturally historically associate it with filth shirt. And it's not filth or dirt in in sort. Of course, the little sense. It's like a metaphor, but it has to do with discussed. That is a kind of social discussed and women are disgusting because they are more in touch. That's again is like the myth, right? The myth is that they more in touch with that buddies, they But really, they're not very minds. Wouldn't be mindful. That means something else. But they're not sort of as you're not intellectual. They're not intelligence, and they are. So they're filthy, um, and discuss thing. And of course, these are myth. And so their ideology is so they're not. It's not like men are sitting around always saying that. I'm sure some are women are, for that matter, but it's sort of ingrained in all of us.

spk_0:   8:26
Interesting. Interesting. You know, you made me think about is that last point there? Because, you know, I've seen in witnessed, you know, men that, you know, that comes out kind of like in fetish ideas, or like a sexual ization like that filth of, um, of treating women poorly. Sexually. Maybe. Maybe they're OK in other areas, but at the end of the day, they just have that sense of they want to punish them and, you know, like you could be like, you know, really hot and you could be really smart, but at the end of the day, you're just a slut. You're just a, you know, a dirty same, you know, slut for you know, whatever. Um and that, you know, that's Ah, that's Ah, kind of like I mean, that's such a strange like to me. It's like the dichotomy of why some things are okay. And then some things aren't OK, you know, Where do where do they think the origins of these beliefs and this contempt and hatred, you know, may stem from. And I know we're all unique coming. We both know that. So we all have different experiences in circumstances. But I gotta believe there's some sort of common areas for people of how they end up evolving and developing these types of feelings.

spk_1:   9:30
I mean, it's a cult. It is partially, of course, culture, cultural inheritance. Right. So the norms that exists that 200 years year old Sorry, Uh um in Europe or here, in America or elsewhere, they don't just go away, right? They might become this sort of obvious look harder to spot, but they they think sometimes change is a little bit, but the change slowly and so that's where they came from. And so then you could go back and say, Well, where did that come from? Historically, then, um well, would question in terms off, it's not clear that you could actually appeal to a beautiful illusion. Has done explanation because that many examples where of society's. If you go far enough back where women actually were in charge, right? So so it's not. It's not evolution. It's it's probably religion, but not one single village in but but But almost well, I wouldn't say all religion certainly not always wins. But, um, many religions, um, excite this kind of hierarchy where men are up here, high up on dhe and women are lower down in the hardly by Ricky. So maybe maybe religions, even when people, not villages. That has influenced the culture many years ago. And that's carried on. Um, we have these what people whole implicit bias us on DDE. We have them towards women, have many women, have them towards themselves as well, and that's, I think, where it came from. So in terms of evolution, Yeah, the work that we're society is where communities where, where men were in charge. But there were also many examples where women were excellent charge, where women were thought of a stronger And actually, in some ways, women are strong over. If you just look at the women live longer than men, for example Um, I don't know that any relationship illusion, but maybe one day we'll buy

spk_0:   11:50
that. Yeah, well, And you know what I've seen to our, you know, understood from historical context To where you know, at some point in time, you know, women were created into more of a state of of property and in order to be able to be traded, you know, from family to family married into and things like that. And so a lot of the rights are, you know, we're eroded because there were benefits, you know, by co mingling certain families together. And obviously the bloodline starts with a woman you know of giving birth and, you know, creating errors and Children. Is there any parts of where a misogyny might erupt from? You know, I write I'm asking this question because I read this book, you know, a while back by Alan Jenks. And it's called White Men Hate women and he, um he's actually out of the UK and he has a center where he treats a lot of men that are abusive towards women. And he related a lot of experiences between men and their mothers and having this developing some sort of deep, you know, and kind of a misunderstood or or not quite. Ah, you know, conscious, um, hatred towards their mom. For whatever reason, either she was emotionally unavailable. She actually physically, you know, we're emotionally abandoned them and they have. They feel this this sense of hatred towards women. Now, I feel like that would be like towards all women. And you're saying that misogyny is around certain aspects of women and not just women in general. So is there a distinction between Well, I guess sexism and misogyny. Well, let

spk_1:   13:24
me put it this way. That when you when you have these two main forms of misogyny, one is, um hate based. So hey, it's like a sort of an escalating form of anger, that simple way to think about it. Consent this, like looking down on the person. I think the content based form is much more white spread in society. So I think that's closer to being for all women. Um, does that mean that the boy has contempt for his mother when he grows up? No, Probably not. Right. So that's why it's not all women. And, um, and the mother, presumably in many cases where boys have a very close relationship to their mother on the mother has hit some of those traditional tree. It's, I mean, that's a that's a generalization. You can't generalize like that. But But I bet that if you look closer, that's probably what you would find, because is if she has those feminine trades were many offthe um, anyway, um, Susie, it's not like she's not what? She shouldn't be punished. You should be praised according to to the man, Right? So? So you might also be that man, of course, idealize them other somebody. They see them as having those traits. And so the hats, um, they are their lives like me, too, to ah have the hate based form of moussaka. Knee towards mother is where you sometimes dispose and other family members, but the concern pistol there, right? So it's just hidden from consciousness, right? The contact towards women, even the boys that were door their mothers, They can still have this contempt a work, women, even hair, because she's a woman. Exactly. Might not be thinking about it, but they're really feeling discussed that my oldest buddy stuff like women give birth Women administrator Women. Yeah, yeah. So it sze that is this, like disgust. Well, it isn't Think the consent base form sort of have arrived from discussed whistling became social disgust of forms.

spk_0:   15:55
Interesting. Now you had identified it Read an article and I'll have a link in the show notes for other people to be able to follow up on and read. This is, well, four basic types of female misogynists. And you you call them the Puritan, the self critic, the self loathing her in the she devil. And so I want to go through and actually talk about each of these different types and so that we can actually understand them better because it is fascinating again. When we talk about misogyny, it's usually men hating women. And you know, the topic here today is about the fact that you know, women actually do perpetrate it against you know one another as well. So first Let's start with the Puritan, you know? Who is she? What type of female misogynist is this?

spk_1:   16:39
Yeah, so s so in this case. So now we're talking about as you emphasize about women who hate women but with many of the same reasons that men men do s o We can also look at, um, femaleness happiness as either hate owes or containment. Contempt knows

spk_0:   16:59
contempt. Er's works. I know what you mean. Right.

spk_1:   17:04
Um, the cures cures on is one of those women who actually buys into the feminist idea or not The feminists ideal, the femininity. Ah, hell of femininity and ship. It basically things, whether consciously or not, that women should be a domestic servant to two men kind, mild manners, alluring. Um, sexually pure least before marriage and so on. Um and, um, she probably has gotten or adopted this ideal from her, her family, maybe her husband, the maybe her maybe friends. Maybe culture. Um, and she Do you actually consider yourself satisfying those many of those trades were having made many of those traits, right, O r. And at least being close enough that she is not one of the bat women zeros he is basically a good woman because he has used good women female traits. So even so, maybe she's not young brothers. He's useful. Luring mile timbered kind maybe, Uh and and so what? Um, so So she is the kind of person who might be tended to punish people will. Let's out of people if people deviate from that ideal. So you deviate. He's some waves from that ideal. I deviate from that deal to you, and and and then you occasionally will have people. Um, that's out of you women. In fact, on DDE yeah, whether whether you have women letting out, you probably depends on well, you like an online personality. So I often have women like saying that bad things in the common section on my psychology today posts on Well, who knows, maybe the men and it just writing on the no name right. But you might also just have if you're a mom but on the mom on, and, um, you might, you might find the other school moms have are those kinds of puritans who I really think that you were weird where you deviate from the way off to the so so my daughter. It sends a very traditional private school in Miami, and they are school. Mom, you really, um I think that if they could, they should probably punish me for my deviation example of a single. I'm a single mother that's already won. No. No.

spk_0:   20:12
Right. Yeah, It's like I think it just makes me think of like, standing on the sidelines of the soccer games. You know, in the end, the clusters of and I you know, I I remember when my kids were little like I just wasn't that mom. I'd show up in a leather jacket, tattoos on. And I was like, Man, I do not sit in here like this is not my people. Um, you know, fortunately, the women were nice, but there is a tendency of like, you know, a kind of pre judging and grouping everybody first, you know, and whether or not they fit into their um and so it sounds like with this one here, you're, um and I think you did say this earlier that, you know, this is this is likely something learned. And the word Puritan obviously makes us think of Nathaniel Hawthorne in the Scarlet Letter. and it thinks of, like, deeply religious, you know, underpinning to where somebody picks these things up. Because a lot of this seems to be really, you know, written in some of the religious text, like the Bible about subservient, you know, attitudes and things like that. Now, is this type of a woman again? You know, Does she have a job? I mean, does she work and also, you know, integrated into society? I mean of stay at home. Mom isn't natural, you know, just automatically a puritan, right or

spk_1:   21:22
no. Yeah. Okay. Well, not all the stay at home moms, of course, are automatically Puritans, but And also, you don't have to have all of the traits to consider yourself being closing after that ideal. So, I mean, it probably isn't a single woman who would have that whole long list of trades that are sort of considered classically feminine. So? So it's something about how many ways do you actually stray from that ideal, right? Then if it if it causes some kind of robbery in some ways of spraying for that ideal of yours are worse than others on dhe, then that so back to question the working mom. Of course, she is not staying at home with the Children, assuming Steven has Children, right? So she has is missing a couple of of those check items on this of the ideals of femininity. But she probably has a lot of the other ones. When you see things she does. So it's not really about whether or not to those is about whether she thinks she goes,

spk_0:   22:32
Yeah, yeah, now and as you know, is my brain is like running through here when we get through these cause, I will want to talk about, um, feeling some of these things and then the action, because I think that's where the, you know, for me, it's what it is, affects us most deeply is you know, some people listening to the show might hear some of these things that they've got, you know, planted in a script somewhere. The differences between feeling them because they were there, they were a message or a story that was passed down to you culturally or through your your family and then taking action on whether or not you turn around and take it against taken out against other women for it. And I think that's kind of like the the two, the two things that distinctions I want to make now the next one you have is the self critic and S o Z. How is she different from the others?

spk_1:   23:23
She seems very similar, except that she includes herself in the bag group. So she's considers himself a bad woman, whether again, not necessarily consciously, but she things that, uh, that it's an ideal, that femininity is an ideal and that, as you get this goes to it as usable on DSI has not. She's not there. She's not in that she's not close enough. So she's very critical of herself, right? So she thinks he's too fat or too big or true, brown or black or true, Um so single or, um, to pour whatever it could be right that that is not consider, um, like something that a good woman, a trait that a good woman would have. Of course, different people might think like different that women should have different trades, like even if they all sort of think of femininity. But there's some overlap. I'm thinking in terms of those trades, and she doesn't think you might even be very feminine, but she doesn't think that's use. And so you think she should be

spk_0:   24:36
interesting? So is she more or less hostile to herself than to other people?

spk_1:   24:42
So that's what I'm thinking, the way that I went when I have looked at the different kinds of misogyny I was. I'm thinking that she's more preoccupied with herself but being, as in a critical way rather than in a narcissistic play. Although, of course it can also, like, go overboard, it becomes almost like a form of narcissism. But usually it's more like season. You know whom worst critic on, but but it's not about. It's not because, say, Oh, I should have gotten on education is that that's not the reason in this case, it's because he doesn't have those feminine traits. Or maybe she does. But she doesn't think

spk_0:   25:28
that's interesting because, you know, coming into this, you know, we again thinking about holding a misogynistic belief in acting on it or different things, and we're talking about a woman here that still has those elements of believing that there's ideals and things that women are not successfully, you know, aligning with and in this case here with the self critic. You know, she's not really out there on a pulpit. Maybe the way the Puritan is, you know, standing out there, commenting on everybody and why you're not good enough. And you know, how dare you? Whatever. This is a pretty quiet, you know, misogynous, you know, having those feelings that a lot of them being directed at herself A cz Well, which seems kind of sad, you know? How would we know something? I guess you know, to me, I was gonna say, How would we know? And I guess I think is I would I would see that this is the woman who's, you know, posting a lot of it using social media. That's how we can identify people or making self deprecating comments on a regular basis, you know, about themselves.

spk_1:   26:25
Yeah, and she might also make very general lives comments about how women should be like, right, so But she's probably, uh, so invited herself that she's probably less likely to. You really take it out on specific women. But my general comments

spk_0:   26:45
interesting. Well, so that now we're coming down into something that sounds similar. So I'm interested in hearing the distinction for you. Which is the self loathing? All right. Yeah.

spk_1:   26:56
Yeah. So it was, um it was actually hard. Thio. Find some terms that would say was that, but really, and now over in a different category of misogyny. So we over in the category that involves consents and consent, As as I see it is a kind of social discussed. So it's discussed that a similar to this to normal disgusts. But it's also it's also a way off looking down on people or having disrespect for them. Right? So you're looking down and contract. You're looking down. Um what? Well, if you're looking down on women, it must be for some reason. If you discussed it with them, it must be some reason. Well, it's because they have this filthy mess to them. They have something that can provoke disgust. They have something, and that makes him inferior to, um maybe through some exceptional cases of women and certainly to men. Um, so So there. Lots of historical cases. Even where, um, where you see women described as manipulative or irrational or incompetent or dishonest or promiscuous, where anything like, like something that has more to do with, um with the body. So I actually had uninterested example to illustrate this. This might help a little bit. It's from the philosopher political philosopher Martha News Bomb. He cites Jonathan Switz poem. It's not a real poem, so it's not gonna be the difficult. And I mean, it's not your apartment since, like,

spk_0:   28:52
right, Yeah, I get is like my high school English is coming back way. We're sitting there going, I don't get it

spk_1:   28:58
right. It's called the latest dressing room. Okay, so in the poem a man sneaks into, he has a lover. He sneaks into her, her private quarters, her room after she's done like beautifying herself. Uh, we spent, like five hours washing and dressing. Um, and now he wants it into her bathroom on and on, like room apartment, whatever it is. And it goes like this. Snacks your wax. Banderas has plucked from her chin close with sweaty AM piss in oil, Um, a pool of scrapings off her teeth and guns. Stockings that smell, Let's thinking toes, All of which turned poor strep under those names. Spot whereabouts. The climax of his revulsion arrives when he opens the laundry chest. Um, and he finds a Pandora's box of evils. He finds evidence of urine and feces is and menstrual fluid things which was not be expressed. Um, and so he, like, gets really discussed that on his he says. Oh, Celia, Celia, Celia shits. That's how their eyes it, like this is from, uh, put like, um, I mean, it's it's clearly not a contemporary one, but right. It's kind of where you can see where the disgust of Bill comes from. So it's not the last news bomb actually argues that it is. Is these Buddy Lee stuff that women are, uh, appreciated with? I think it's like a little bit more metaphorical. So I think that it's true that that the filth, um, that that's sort of what provokes contempt. So this is the other form of misogyny that we're talking about. Um, the self loathing and in this case is that you include the woman who is, um, has this contempt for the women also has contempt for yourself. But the filth is not necessarily. I don't think it's necessarily like it doesn't have to be discussed with menstrual fluid, for example, what you're waxed. It's it's rather I think it's rather other things, like promiscuity. Oh, it's just too much sex or it's just a manipulative. She's deceptive, dishonest, just too angry. Um, she's irrational, incompetent, not into holding. And But in this case, like in the other case of this self critical, the self hater. Ah, in the other case, um, in this case, the woman also actually think that she herself is disgusting and something disgusting or filthy or what? Like the serving off disrespects, right? And I mentioned, like the famous TV show that The Handmaid's Tale as an example of it weighs you, for example, that you see, like one of the commanders. I mean, the wives right is an example, like, I don't know if your listeners have What's the show, but, um, but this is like where where women are used to it, sort of enslaved to produce Children because they have a problem with infertility and their civil examples of that. But there's also, um, Lydia and Lydia is a one who's supposed to train these women who was supposed to come to these breeders of of Children and and if you look closer at her background. It turns out that before they got into this society, that TV show the pics she waas sort of a pro life extremists. And so issues like thinking off ourselves trying to say is saving women from sin. But she's also at the same time, and a self loathing she she doesn't she does not think highly over. So she's things that people lungs further down in the higher the Ohio, up the hats than the women, right? That's his also. No thing, but certainly lower down than the men, right, cuz issues do things that that she's yes, it deserves to be down there in the in the dirt where it belongs with the other filthy women.

spk_0:   33:47
Yeah, it seems like between the self critic and the self low there, there's this. You know, the Turning Point is, a self critic may actually feel that they can redeem themselves, that there's a goal that they can attain, that there's an ideal that they can reach. But when you get into this realm of where the self low there is, you know where it's like there is no upward mobility, there is no improvement. You're stuck where you are there is no getting better. Um, and that's like I mean, that just it feels terrible. Todo have a mindset like that of, you know, um, you know that, you know, one has hope, you know, as little as it is by being a self critic, but the with a low there is just like, No, there's no way out of this. Like, I just feel like it's such a much more emotionally dark place for, you know, a woman to be And, you know, and as you were describing it, it's like it's as if women have been dehumanized in this mindset. You know that everything that that is natural, truly natural is is a za point of, you know, of of contempt, right? Like it shouldn't be there, Which is just obviously strange, because we are all human men and women both do the same things, but yeah, I feel like to me, that's the difference between, like, the emotional difference between that self critic and that self over 11 is working to do better, and one is like, There's no point. I'm disgusting. Everyone's disgusting.

spk_1:   35:09
Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And yeah, um, yeah, You hit this and that The nail is on the heads because the contract when people have the contacts, whether it's a man or a woman, was contempt for women. Um, it's usually but well, maybe they don't think much about where it comes from. But when you look at where it comes from, usually comes from the idea that that is sort of a certain essence that is female. But it was a female essence, right? In essence, in the sense that, um, we could think of like humans what was lovely, the essence of humans if we like not misogynistic well, maybe like they have human d N a. Maybe it's some other things, too, but the essence of women is just in frustrated with this dirt and filth. These, like really bad traits in moral traits on DDE. That's what muse with the contempt it. And that's why if it's something that's genetic, and that's what a lot is. A lot of people throughout history who added that it was genetic right? And women genetically like that, Yeah, Then you can't really changed it, right? It's hardwired, um was like the feminine ideal when you deviate from that and you hate it because of that, and you get you to get harness because of that, then that is in some sense because it's your fault, right? You could have, like, chosen to stay at home. Or you could have chosen through, um, grow out your hair or you could have chosen to not get so choose or whatever. Yeah, so you're absolutely right. That is, like a difference there. Ah, another difference.

spk_0:   37:10
So now we're finally at the she devil, and I think that's you know, I mean, that term in itself. I think everybody's like, Yeah, I kind of know what that is. But but what is Ah, what is a she devil when it comes into the realm of again female misogyny?

spk_1:   37:25
Yes, I'm thinking like it's It's like a self Lowther, except she's like the office and she doesn't know she has no nothing. I mean, she doesn't know herself. She does not have contempt for herself. She has contempt for other women to text yourself to be superior to other women, maybe also to other men. But at least with the women, All right, So So she was like this unique being who is up there with all the men. The top men, um and and then women are down below her. So she's looking down on them right from her, Um, her sort of her height of moral high chair and and see, um, she will typically, I mean, one way that a have described this person could be in terms of being extremely remind us, but us at the same time trying to push down other women. I mean, to get them up off the ladder. S o They're not in competition, but it. But that's just one example. It could be, You know, I mean, it could be the other way. Is that that you could take yourself to be up there with a man, right? Maybe. Maybe it's uncertain some sports that you're doing where it's about the other ways that you can look down on women, but not yourself, because you uniquely where maybe with a few others, um, half these perfect me rate, um, trace. Yet, like you're not, for example, you're not irrational, are the women are irrational. You're not incompetent and unintelligent, but other women are, um you're not manipulative, but other women are and so on Europe your minds, perhaps on but other women of disgusting, filthy bodies. I mean, the different ways that could manifest,

spk_0:   39:24
right? And it sounds like to that it's possible that while some of these air based on the spending an ideal and going back to the Puritan of you know what women are supposed to do subservient, you know, sexually pure whatever it is, this particular type of misogynist may fully embrace a masculine, you know, identity or what we would call a masculine identity. Um, maybe, because of rejecting female identity if it's all tied into that. But also, this woman could also be what she believes is the purest female identity and rejects all women because they're incapable of reaching it. So it's almost like, you know, the she devil can be, you know, kind of Ah, 22 sides of the same. Yeah,

spk_1:   40:06
that's that's a report. Yeah,

spk_0:   40:08
interesting now. And I say this she devil, cause I feel like that's the one that because the the outward nous of this is that this this seems like the one between the Puritan, and this one is the one that maybe exhibits the most hostility towards other women like actual taking action. And that's why I wanted to talk about like, you know, um, it's one thing to internalize this, but it's another thing to behave outwardly and act with aggressive aggression towards other people. And, you know, she devils seem like they're the type they

spk_1:   40:40
yeah, they sent to have dark, dark personality traits. Um, I mean, the the dark traits are narcissism. Ah, anti social personality disorder, which would be psychopathy in normal terms. Similar enough anyway. And it's for one broken moms. Yeah, what alive put borderline personality disorder. But those those are not to be thought of as necessarily accidental positions, right, because the existence critical conditions. You could have borderline personality disorder and really have a clinical condition. But you don't have some of those traits that was like, more extreme in the normal population. But they don't reach the level of being a criminal clinical illness or a psychiatric illness, and some some It seems that those traits often associate it with the C double, so she was like, more likely to have narcissistic trip eights. She's more likely to have traits that are similar to those of a psychopath, and I don't mean necessarily a serial killing psychopath in, um, in the sense where you can have is the CEO of your company might be a psychopath, because that's, like, apparently quit straight to have If you want to become CEO of a company or the teen or the dean of the college of something to use my own world, Um, already little hyo up, Let's say Provost, Yeah, I'm not talking about anyone

spk_0:   42:19
t make sure this Brit does not mean anyone in particular. They're

spk_1:   42:25
there. They're completely exceptional. If this university so they would never ever, ever have, Right, right? No, I get that. Now.

spk_0:   42:34
I feel like sometimes with the she devil, you know, some women, maybe mistakenly accused of being a she devil just because of the of the narcissistic part of it. You know the woman who, you know, post a lot of selfies, for example. You know, those women do get attacked a lot, right? You know? Yeah. Even if they feel even if they look like they are some sort of perfect feminine, you know, um, there seems to be right now, we love to attack people for posting a selfie and that accusing everybody of being narcissistic. Yeah, and you know, I don't I don't personally believe that that's that's an affair. Diagnosis, an assessment of everybody. She was doing it or driven to do that. But I've seen women. You know, I've seen very kind women that happen to be very attractive and men like them. And then they just get like, attacked by other women and accused of being something that they're really not. All right, Is that jealousy? Or is that another form of female misogyny? Cause I feel like some women who do that probably wouldn't consider themselves misogynist. Like in general. I don't think women would consider themselves misogynistic. Yeah, it's ah,

spk_1:   43:35
can fidelity if it's related. Thio a lost Chelsea is more related to like, Oh, I'm about to lose something doesn't have to be jealousy in a romantic sense, right? It needs fixing something else. He could be using spots, uh, in at work or a promotion at work. Or so that was a little Countess galaxy so that we can also talk about envy and often just say dollars and envies museums anonymously. But envy is more focused on that. You really watch what the other person has, right? So So it's not that you're afraid of losing something you already have, but rather something you don't have and you wish you had. And with a woman is very beautiful and attractive to men and so on. Um, that would be a kind of envy. Uh, presumably in terms of that would that would then spark though that hatred, I do argue and elsewhere in the article that mentioned but elsewhere have argued that that envy is is away is like a platform for was springboard for sort of hatred. So So it's in the need not developed into hatred. And you already speaking Maybe you could be a news in a positive sense where you're just like was this makes you work harder to say the come, you know, finish your degree over that's in the has a tendency to escalate into the spiteful and the and that's really envy. That then has provoked hatred and so envy. So we are in views of women more commonly than men, because we are capable or more capable of comparing ourselves to other women than we are to other men. And when you're able to see yourself in the other person's shoes. In some sense, um, that's more likely to make you envious. So, yeah, you might be India's of if you're working. Um, say your secretary and a big company and the CEO is is driving a variety or some other sports car? You might be a little bit in this, but it is not. It's usually not gonna develop into some kind of strong envy was if it's like someone who is like you, right and they got something, we're It's not like they did just get it right. Maybe they earned it, but you might feel envious and where they might have it. If you talking about the looks of a person, intelligence of a person, do you mind so women can compare themselves to other women? Um, this much easier for women to do that? Then it is to compare themselves to a math. So So it's it's It's strange that that's what we need to focus on that probably cultural heritage as well,

spk_0:   46:49
right? And so envy is different than misogyny, and I think that and I want to talk about whether or not that is, you know, if there is a distinction between the two. For anybody that's sitting there wondering like am I? Am I being misogynistic towards other women? When I do see that and I have that sense like, you know, when we see a woman that has something that we want, it could be professionally. It could be aesthetically. It could be for a 1,000,000 things, you know? She's got a boyfriend. She has a great car. She's got a great job, you know? She's being successful here. I'm not. That's not the same as being misogynistic, right? That's that's a totally

spk_1:   47:23
well, yeah, you can. It can be because, like, you could ask yourself if you feel like envy Uh, Sze very natural. Um, ask yourself. Well, do I dislike the person for this? And now we're assuming like that the person hasn't done anything against you. Like the reason is that because she's beautiful. Do you dislike her? Or is it just that you wish you were also beautiful? Uh, we're someone who is, uh, like a trainer. Personal trainer in your life was you also had most muscles like that or told buddy like that s so is it like you wish you were like that. Or is it? No, you really dislike, right? I wouldn't say hate, Red, but well, it's not something that case, but any. Doesn't need to consent in the street to hating the others. And it escalated form of of dislike, the escalating form of anger. Are you gonna like? Are you feeling like you hate her feeling like? But just that It's this, like, because people are not usually they don't want to admit that they hate people. Right? So So it was asked this light Do this like the person because it's beautiful. Do you dislike her? The personal female personal trainer? Because he has a total body. Um, do just like, um, it is like people don't like you because you're successful. Have a really successful pot cat. That's right. Um, they could you can envy without disliking on. That's when it's less then it's certainly not in this ordinary right, but it gets to dislike. If you could say this like, you probably hate and that's misogyny. Interesting. Is that envy? As sparked misogyny?

spk_0:   49:14
Yes. It moved into that that place, um and I guess I think it was more like an action. You know, um, either Ah, hostility towards yourself or, you know, expressing hostility towards other people versus just having some normal feelings, you know, the way that we're gonna have. Yeah, exactly. Is it?

spk_1:   49:34
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am talking mostly about the emotion, but open that. The truth is like, we are not very good at hiding our emotions. Even if we like to think we are s o, they tend to come out even, um, even the heaven when we don't know, it's that we're acting are behaving in a way that shows our emotions. So we are, in some sense, wearing our emotions on our sleeves. So So, yeah, I don't think that you can separate it from behavior if you could really keep your feelings to yourself. Well, maybe they are. That's not Mr Aiken. You that Because it is not so strong that you need to act out. This is, um if nobody notices, right, Rio? So then you might just be thinking Oh, wait, am I missing this Dick Nile? Because I envy this person into you because you're a part of your podcast is so great. And but I don't just like new right. So that Z So that's that zaatini on does not mean I don't see that is being harmful. They may not motivate needs. You start my own put podcast. But he could, but it might not. Might be the unusual, or it might even be.

spk_0:   50:48
Yeah, And I've, you know, I've experienced that with other women, especially when, you know, some of us run in similar circles and and we we check ourselves of like, gosh, you know, um, especially went against social media. Does that, like social media really can grow a lot of these feelings in people because you see the posts and you see somebody and you're just like, um, you know, the envy could be normal. That's why I wanted to touch on it, because it can't be normal. But there is a fine line between it feeling like it's, you know, diabolical and versus just, you know, And like you said, they're it's like feeling envy. But at the same time, I like where your mark is, is like, does it cross over into dislike? Do I still admire this nurse? And I still respect this person, my feeling like, Wow, they got something I'd like, but I don't. My feelings about them hasn't changed. Like theirs. That's when you're like, you're fine. You're normal. You're just a human being like the rest of us,

spk_1:   51:38
you know? Yeah, Yeah, yeah. It has envy. Late is all those close to it. Can't be almost close to admiration. Right it is. Adds a little element like that. You also wish you had it because you can admire someone without wishing you had that, right? Right. Bring that total liar like an old meal philosopher like areas Total one thing that you have been an

spk_0:   51:59
old mill right now. How widespread is female misogyny, you know, Is it is it? It's very

spk_1:   52:07
wet, but, I mean, there are some that is up it on the Internet, where it suggests that it's really surveillance on the Internet. But announced a minute studies of it. So we don't we don't really know s Oh, this is just from, uh, interviewing people and talking to people about women about misogyny and what their experiences that I get the sense that it's very prevailing. But there are some studies. It's just easier to study in starting the online up for us. on their studies showing that women even warming something mistake than men. Um, in the online behavior so interesting. But yeah, so I mean, that's one study. And of course, it's like it was limited to Twitter eso. So we would still have to look at a lot of other studies. I'm sure that will be more studies coming out. Maybe there's even some that are like populace first online that I haven't seen yet and so on. But it's becoming definitely becoming, um, more common, more common sort of phenomenon. Thio to investigate, like female Miss Artemis. Because because you're right, like historically has often iwas almost thought as up as a man hating women. But the man part is really not card, even off the original meaning of the words just means means women hatred.

spk_0:   53:37
It seems like in the last couple of years, and maybe it's just because of age and maturity and paying attention to different things. You know, that could happen there. But, um, you know, I I feel like you can see a lot more cases of female misogyny. Um, you know, due to our socio political climate, you know, and being more out spoken and having a platform again through social media to express that, you know, before, before there was Facebook, instagram, twitter, whatever. You know, it was hard to broadcast your ideals and your beliefs about women. You know, men. It was like that. But now you can and then that there's this also this rising. You know, of course, of this antithesis to this. And there's a lot more acrimony. It feels like out there about these two. You know, these two things coming Thio kind of coming to a head, Um, and, you know, and I guess you know, is a philosopher yourself, you know, it starts. Just beg this question of, you know, I look at it as this is a mental health condition that needs to be treated, but, you know, these are belief systems, right? There's parts of it that are actually belief systems that some of it's not grounded in anything biological or neuroscience or anything like that. But, you know, at what point do you have? You know, try to treat somebody who shows misogynistic behavior is, you know, addressable. Is it treatable? Yeah. You know, how do you have you tackle that? Does that make sense?

spk_1:   54:57
That's a good question. But, yes, I agree. I think that even though it's not biological, more like a cultural or inherited culturally inherited thing, I think that just is like implicit, bias assed way. There's been some talk about that. For example, how black people even having kids of that implicit biases against black people. So, um so so so naturally it is not. It's obvious that women would having pizza pies is against women. There was a women. Can you treat those? Well, you can train people if they're willing to be trained to have. You can tell them, don't have an implicit bias because here's a muse unconscious so houses like. But you can train them. I mean lots and lots and lots of, uh, ways that have been investigated that work. And it just depends on the area. Someone one way. So there's something about improve out group, so use it. So So by having friends that are not necessarily old like you is, um So So the pure zone perhaps should get to know you or me, right? And the confronted them thistles. They like Fred befriending the out crew member. Um is is known in other areas of implicit buyers. So having a lot of people, friends of different cultures were going to say, Ah, fitness studio, where that Locke tribute people from different cultures in Miami let lots and lots of people from different cultures on. I do think that makes a difference. And I also lived in ST Louis, and I can say, Well, one thing that that they're not that many relatively speaking black people in Miami when the lots of black people in ST Louis where I worked before and and it seems that, but I got lots of Let's Lotina's Latinos let Latino accent that something. Lots of people from Europe, Europe, Spain, other Europeans, even other Danish people even like there's another things person. I'm here at the institute, uh, and I think that that yeah, it's it's basically something that you can to get put back to your question or not to get a um off the track. It's basically you can you can train yourself to, but not probably you can't really train yourself, but you can train. But the people, um, and that's just one way, like defending people who were unlike you on and other. I mean, they liked him not to lots of other ways. And we know that anonymous saying like CVS or where people are doing kind of musical tests performance If you don't know whether the violin is this woman were man, then they're more likely to end up in the orchestra. And so that a bunch of ways that we have sort of bypass, uh, use implicit biases. But I Yes, it will be hard to get people

spk_0:   58:19
right. Yeah, is like And like you said, as long as people so cluster in communities of interest, right? And so they find each other It is hard. But, you know, like you said, if somebody is willing to be open minded and I think that's usually the difference that you see is that you know, I think you and I both have met men and women alike. That is, I have had those biases, you know, through their life, have ventured out into the world and then found that one person that changed their mind, you know, just because they got to know them in a whole different level, they got to have that connection with them. And then they began to question, You know, some of those things that they have inside of their their head about certain things and and have been able to, you know, the altar, you know, their viewpoints and stuff like that. So but there's a willingness, obviously, just like with anything that we talked about on the show and then just in general, it starts with us tow. Have to be willing to be open minded to that into. And what I like about this conversation is for anybody that's sitting there thinking about themselves. And if they're holding on to some of these biases that that actually, you know, our misogynistic in nature, you know, and you're willing to step into Well, maybe I should think about how I change these like you suggested. You know, think about the people that you've avoided because you've had these, you know, feelings kind of crop up in there and reach out and grab coffee or go hang out with them like you've not wanted to do and just see if you know, um, learning and understanding a little bit more about another person doesn't help because I feel, you know, at the end of the day with with misogyny. Um, it's there's this own sense of self shame, you know behind it like it's it's easier, I think, for some people to hate somebody else than it is to address some some of their own internal pain and suffering. You know that's in there. It's easier to control everybody. Or, you know, it's easier air quotes to try to control other people, to try to get them to fit your norms in your own standards than it is sometimes to really sit down with yourself and kind of work on your inner world. And so anybody that can see themselves in this, you know, that's a big first step, in my opinion, to being able to say, like, you know, let's let's talk about what? Where your conflict really is inside of here because it isn't really that these people out here doing something against you, you know, you're just you're projecting all of that out there, you know? Yeah. So Yeah, cool. Well, um, this has been great. And so I want to give you a chance, you know? Is there anything that you know? You've got that people can reach out to you. I know you've written several books that you know in a variety of different topics and mental health and mental wealth. And so I want to turn this over to you, to be able to talk about you know, what you're working on and how and I'll have links to you. But you know what should people be? If you want people to reach out to you, What should they be looking for?

spk_1:   1:1:01
Well, um my psychology today blood, I have the one called Mr Is of Love. I have another one. That's I tried Thio put them with slightly more scientific stuff over there, but not always. It's called the super human Mind on. But the mysteries of love, as you usually wear Discuss that started me on other things related to that. Also in the dollars e and so on on s Oh, it's just my name stakeholder. Today those will come up or what Mr is a love psychology. Today we'll work. I'm working on a book on on hatred, actually called hatred, our moves, the dangerous emotions. Ah, and that's I finished management. So I'm waiting for the copy that was edited already so by the editor and, um, waiting for the copy edited versions. I should be out in a few months. Um, it's it's ah is appealing to eternal organs, even though is published with an academic s. I had a book on romantic love as well with Oxford University Press. But that is also again a feeling to, uh, even more gentle audience. Not an academic audience at all was with hatred. Book tried t right in a way where it would be readable by everyone. But I do have it. Didn't have to take on some difficult topics because you get into politics and all kinds of things like that. One of you, when you talk about hatreds so

spk_0:   1:2:35
well, no have links to the books that you already have published. Those will be in the podcast is for people to be able to get Thio. And I'm fascinated by the topic of hatred, you know, not for weird reasons, except that it's it's not well discussed. It's not well understood. It's a it's an emotion. As you know, people retreat from more or less because of a lot of fear behind it and experiences that we've had we've ran into hatred or what we deem is hatred. And so when you get that book out, I would love to be able to talk with you more about that because, you know, I think that we that that maybe it's easy for us to show joy and our happiness, but it really becomes difficult for us when we need to let a very natural emotion like I really hate this. I'm really angry. I'm sad about this on, and that's the one that we're kind of told to pin it, keep it away. And it has such a such a toxic effect on our lives, relationships or bodies and stuff like that. So yeah, yeah,

spk_1:   1:3:29
yeah, because yeah, because, I mean, you cannot People confuse, uh, the kind of anger you have. If you feel that things are unfair or not just right, you're seeking justice. In some sense, you're protesting the hats. Um, that's the kind of anger that even like, could you do this right? There's a kind of hatred, but it's not a bad form of hate you. If you don't, that's out of people. I mean, other than speaking up. But then, if you hate people, uh, in in in, sent in some of the other senses. Then that's probably bad, right? You meet people because women or because they're black or that I cannot see in a situation where that would be considered could be considered a positive thing.

spk_0:   1:4:17
Right? Right. Absolutely cool. Well, Brit, thank you so much for your time. This has been an amazing conversationally. I was excited, justifiably virtue with talking with you today. So this is amazing. I really do appreciate your time covering this with me a lot. Well, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for listening to one broken mom. You confined podcast notes on my website at Aneke Berko dot com. And they're all provide all links. All of the resource is that we mentioned on the episode. Also, if you have any questions, comments for ideas for other episodes, feel free to send me an email. And if you're interested in sponsoring the show, I loved a heavy Be a part of the team. Finally. If you like what you hear, please share the podcast and leave a review so that others can find it. We're all here to get better together. I am the host of meat for Kony. And as always, I am super grateful to have you as a listener until next time. Have a great day.